(MOGS) On the Mark Steyn piece

This caused enough of a stir, both here and at plenty of other blogs, that I think it warrants its own post.  I intentionally avoided posting my own views on it with the original submission because I wanted to see what the masses would say.  This time though, my own views will come out.  Hopefully, some of the angrier folks who read the original aren't so angry to as completely drop out of the discussion. 

If you really want to read some good evaluation of Steyn's article, GO HERE (thanks, DELETED BECAUSE UNHAPPY LOSERS ARE SPAMMING OUR FRIENDS)

A little commentary from me:  A few themes to look for 1) Mirror Imaging of cultures 2) fairness 3) a definition of racism

Part of the problem with today's culture is that one can spend their entire waking life isolated from different points of view, with tailored information sources, news, TV, media, which do little except preach to the already converted, whether it's the Christian Broadcasting Network, Al Jazeera, Air America,  Rush Limbaugh, etc. With 150 (or however many) cable channels, satellite radio and a culture basing itself on "lifestyles", one of Pidge's favorite targets, there is nothing out there that actually forces anyone to ever listen to an opinion that doesn't reinforce their own. 

It's the death of debate; we don't want discourse, we want positive reinforcement and self-esteem boosting endorphin release; we want the self-congratulatory thrill of being told that we're absolutely right and the other side is wrong and little else.  I think we're conditioning our selves to be less critical thinkers, more susceptible to svengalis of every kind and in danger of abdicating the freedom we hold so dearly.  I'm not worried about the Christian right revoking the Constitution, I'm not worried about the Muslims trying to institute Shariah law in my backyard (let me ask you this, do you honestly believe for a minute we'd let either scenario actually come to pass), I'm worried about the Constitution simply becoming irrelevant, because we as a society have become too stupid to know any better. I would say it's a mark of maturity as a person, if you can take challenges to your worldview, and not be crushed by them.  If you do change beliefs, then maybe what you held to be self-evident before was flawed?

That being said, Here's what I think on the whole deal:  Is Mark Steyn a bombastic loudmouthed (PIGEON)-hole?  Yeah he sure is.  Absolutely.  No argument there.  Racist?  Let's define our terms.

From the American Hertiage College Dictionary, 3rd edition, 1993 sitting on my desk right now:

"racism:  n, 1.  The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others. 2 Discrimination or prejudice based on race"

Last time I checked "Muslim, Christian, Buddhist" et. al are religious categories.  I've never seen "Muslim" or "Christian" in the "race or national origin" block of any census form or offical gov't paperwork.  We've already beat racism to death here, no one seemed to complain when we put the Neo Nazis in their place. (you're welcome).  The "race" card is so highly charged, so hot-button, that whenever someone throws it around, the "approved solution" seems to be to stop the discussion completely, fall down and apologize for all the sins of Western Civilization and for offending anyone, etc.  One might as well apologize for existing.  As if white anglo-saxon protestants ( a category I don't fall into) are the only bit of humanity capable of racism.  That in itself is bigotry.  Funny thing, it's perfectly acceptable for foreigners, Asian, European, Mid Eastern, etc I've encountered to look me in the eye and say "Americans, you are all the same."  I turn it around, and it becomes racism. 

Sorry, not going to do it.  Nobody gets a "bye" in the Mogs-verse.

If life at home and abroad has taught me anything, it's that every culture (there's a more accurate word), every nation has its own sins to answer for.  The West is not the root of all evil.  Arabs are just as prejudiced as white Europeans.  So are the Japanese.  So are the Koreans.  These places were not perfect little societies until the coming of the hated West.  How is that attitude any less condescending than the "noble savage" beliefs of the 19th century?  It's patronizing to put any society, whether tribal, religious, or ethnic, on some sort of pedestal.

I've had run-ins with Eastern European police and homeland security forces because they thought I was Caucasian (not white people, the mountainous area in the south of Russia), Neo-Nazi skinheads thinking I was Jewish, Mid Easterners treating me differently depending on if they assumed I was Syrian, Palestinian, Israeli, Saudi, you freakin' name it, and American Hispanics acting on their assumptions of me as Puerto Rican, Mexican, or Cuban - (my sister tells me it's funny watching them get offended when she can't respond to them in Spanish - this hasn't happened to me yet).

It seemed to me that the only people who actually give a damn about being labelled racist, who loose sleep over it are Western professors, journalists, and ordinary citizens who don't want to be associated by anyone with the Hilterites mentioned earlier.  Other nations don't seem to overly concerned about it (ask the Japanese and Koreans what they think of each other sometimes).

We in the West have become all too happy to beat ourselves up, and other cultures, (many Asian and Mid Eastern cultures which place high emphasis on avoidance of shame, or the saving of face) are more than happy to oblige us.  It fits into their cultural paradigm - they make the mistake, AS DO WE so often, of MIRROR IMAGING.  If someone wants to argue that's a racist statement, step right on up!  Take one, just one cultural orientation course to a South West Asian or Far East culture of your choice, then come back and talk to me about it.  There really seems to be this attitude that the only "safe" civilization to criticize is the West. 

A question I never seem to get an answer to, whether it's dealing with foreigners or ignorant townies trapped in the classic American "small town good, big city bad" mindset, is "why is it okay for you to badmouth where I'm from, but I can't say a thing about where you're from?"  Honestly, if the national egos of Seoul, the "Arab Street," (which I'm not convinced really exists in any meaningful way), Quebec City, Bahrain, wherever are that fragile (shrug).  (See the first paragraph on "postive reinforcement").

Societies, cultures and peoples change.  Birth rates change.  The Goths sacked Rome.  China declined.  The Mongols invaded Russia.  The Saxons invaded Celtic Britain.  Some civilisations prosper, others disappear, and little seems to be able to stop the march of history (the Picts, for example, one of the oldest of European civilizations, ceased to exist as a separate people by the 10th century CE, so demographics do matter).  And while I will not, as Steyn does, totally dismiss the case of the environmentalists, if the giants pandas can't be bothered to get it on to save their own species, what the hell are we supposed to do?  Spike the bamboo with Viagra?

Hope you're still with the Pigeon and I in this New Year.  As always, we hope you find the discussion illuminating, or at least just entertaining. 

Just be glad I didn't post this one. Oh yeah and don't eat the yellow snow.  Read Camille Paglia.  Don't shy away from opinions that don't necessarily conform to your world view.  Read, investigate, think, and THEN beat them into a snivelling pulp (just kidding)   ;)

BTW, next person to call me a "Crusader" is getting called a racist.  After I get the gov't to add "Crusader" to the census forms.

Comments

[Beth]

I am with you on the racist thing. I doubt there is any one person anywhere that has a "pure" blood-line. It's just not possible anymore The USA is supposed to be "The melting pot" of the world.

I live in New Mexico, the Four Corners Area to be exact. In a little oilfied Red-Neck town. We are surrounded on all 4 sides by different Native American reservations. Yet, there are still the "White Supremists" thinking that they are always right. (I know this because I was married to one...now he is in prison with a very large Jamician Priest as his cell mate...) I was born and raised here, sad as it may sound, and I am pretty accepting of different cultures. I might not always agree with their pratices, but I do respect them. But I still see those who just flat out refuse to be civil or respectful to these cultures and their people. I do wonder if they just act this way in society because it is expected of them. We are expected to stand up for what we believe in and even fight for it, but are we expected to respect the opinions/belief/cultures of others????

I do think the Constitution's initial value is fading. It has become nothing more than a prop for people to get what they think they want.

Why Americans are so hated...I believe is just a difference in standards. For some reason, we have become the defender of the meek. Which isn't a bad thing, it's actually a good thing and gives us warm fuzzies inside and helps keep really bad things from happening elsewhere. I mean we are a "super power" and what good is a "super power" if you can't help those in need. This being said...is there jealousy because the USA has balls enough to stand up for what they believe in??? True, not all of any nation can believe in the same thing 100% and that is where we are critized. Because we all like to stand up for what we believe in and we allow protets without punishment, unless it gets ugly, we open up ourselves for critism.

The French hate us, yet they are not speaking German right now.

I wouldn't call it racism, I call it tunnel vision.

p.s. I agree with you on the Pandas. We can help, but we sure can't do it for them.

[canuckistani]

i'm onboard with Mogs on this one.

however, one thing i will note is north america has yet to experience domination by another culture. most countries around the world, because they are thousands of years older than NA, have been invaded, the people have fought wars, and been nearly wiped out on their own lands. those left over had to submit to the will of the victor. perhaps you feel this will not happen in this modern age but i think if there is enough of a societal breakdown in north america, if it becomes depraved enough, it will implode on itself and be vulnerable to others who want to capitalize on the opportunity.

our current existence cannot continue, the human animal cannot take the stress, the debt, the constant treadmill of more, more, more and not enough to pay for it with. unfulfilling work is modern-day slavery, it is the death of the soul. people are beginning to reject the idea of work as a means to survival and want a society that will not crush the spirit in the pursuit of the almight dollar. A critical mass will come one day that will reject the culture of materialism and the levers of industry and economy will rust bringing things to a halt. with time, "things" will be gone. (see the book Less is More by Vandenbroek)

with a level playing field such as that, the jihadists or whomever else steps into the vacuum may just be able to take over.

[Chairman Tao]

Mogs-

interesting post. Am I one of the angry contributers to the original post ? I wasn't angry but may be I came across that way.

Your first point is well made - we all need to spend more time understanding wider perspectives and not spending too much time with those who violently agree with us.
Actually, that's much of the reason why I hang out here.

Most people would think of me as something of a tree-hugging liberal hippy. I am certainly not a big fan of the US military (or any military, for that matter, despite having a brother in the Royal Navy) but through reading your thoughts and articles I cannot fail to respect your position.

(and also to like you. In a non-creepy, internet based, we've never met, kind of way)

I find a similar experience with many of your contributers. While we may often be coming from polar political positons it is interesting to note what unites us. Good job all round.

Regarding racsim.
Yes, on a strict dictionary definition, many things claimed as rascist are manifestly not.
They are prejudiced but not rascist.
It can get confusing, though, as many religions are very closely aligned with race eg Judaism.

It raises an interesting point that I have debated, elsewhere, before.
Is it ok to discriminate about someone based on their religion ?

Race is a predetermined criteria at birth. However, religion is a choice. It says something about your belief set. It actually says something about you as a person.
Obviously not as much about you as some people seem determined to surmmise but it does say something about who you are and the values you wish to live by.
If those values are in conflict to, say, a job posting is it prejudiced to refuse to employ ?

The PC brigade would say yes - but you are not turning someone down based on their accident of birth but on the life choices they have made.

Am I turning into Mark Steyn ?

Or just playing devil's advocate ?

It's so hard to know.

[Amal]

Mogs,

I really had to think about my response to this post because I was so upset about the article that I didn't post what could be considered a reasonably coherent response nor did I post any reason why I thought some of what he wrote was racist.

To begin with, I certainly would never say you, Pidge or this site was in any way racist. Let's just get that out of the way. However, the article's tone was one of the "crusading" white dude (or whatever he is) warning about the heathen muslim hordes over populating and taking over the world. The pieces I quoted in my response are consistently used by anti-arab and anti-muslim sites, talking heads and racists.

One thing I would point out is that not all Muslims are looking to take over the world and impose their will so to speak. Some Muslims just want to live like you do. A normal life with normal things. Is that wrong? No. But the article implies that if "white" (for complete lack of a better term) people don't get on the procreation bus, Muslims will take over the world and we will all be living under Sharia. It might interest you to know that when a group of Muslims tried to have Sharia recognized in Ontario, I sent letters to every MLA, MP and Premier I could think of. I sent emails to the Justice Minister and I spoke out in Mainstream media. Not all Muslims think Sharia is a good thing and I certainly don't.

I hope that I have made myself a little more clear and I certainly hope you don't think I was identifying you, pidge or this site with this loser.